whats up to decide where – familiafeliz plenum <> units

Welcome Forums constitution – basics whats up to decide where – familiafeliz plenum <> units

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  • #389
    juan petry
    Keymaster

    based on the internal discussion between old and possibly new members of familiafeliz we have to think about some fixed rules in the charta about the relation between a unit and the familiafeliz plenum.

    i would like to define this in the charta:

    a unit is a funcional combination of people, ressources and knowledge and has a target. the target could be a long-term reason (association, company) or short termed and fixed (project). a unit has minimum one member who is also member of familiafeliz. every member of familiafeliz could join a unit or found a new unit. target and organization is definded by the members of the unit. a unit could apply for accreditation in the familiafeliz plenum. if the familiafeliz plenum accept the unit, it becomes a published accredited unit. if the plenum reject the accreditation it will be a private engagement of one – or some – members of familiafeliz.

    in another topic we where talking about chicken in spain in relation to the home unit casadeldragon or bernies house or to the dye garden project.

    to have chicken implies chicken slaughter! we know some of us, who want meat sometimes ( especially out of own production like chicken or fish > aquaponics), there are other who reject meat (vegetarian or vegan or…).

    so one question is: is it possible to form a living community between people, willing to eat meat and others, not willing to eat meat and not willing to support that for others?

    sample:  one member like to live in a vegan house with other members of familiafeliz. this member invites others to live with him/her. if this member realize the target “home” it becomes a unit. the rules inside this unit are defined by the members of the unit. so according to the charta – draft above it is possible to create home units with people willing to eat meat and such who do not want that. one member like to found a unit “chicken”, to get eggs, meat and good compost for garden projects. this member invites others to partizipate in that unit. the unit “chicken” is founded. in this sample it is possible that one member is part of the chicken unit and the vegan home unit. the member has to accept that there will be no chicken at the table in the vegan home unit, and the members of the vegan home unit have to accept that there is a meat-production unit.

    it is not up to decide from one member or from the familiafeliz plenum, if a unit chicken is possible, and it is also not task of familiafeliz to decide if a vegan home unit is able to set up or not.

    familiafeliz (plenum) has to respect the needs and targets of each member. the target here is, to define a social space in which it is possible that a member could educate his kid in a vegan enviroment AND that a meat consumer member could produce chicken in an animal welfare.

     

    #398
    norbert
    Participant

    the target here is, to define a social space in which it is possible that a member could educate his kid in a vegan enviroment AND that a meat consumer member could produce chicken in an animal welfare.
    I think it is up to the unit-members to decide if it is possible for them to live lucky in such a constellation.
    There are many possible constellations like that: smokers vs. non smokers or sugar-eater vs. raw fruit eater for instance.

    So the charta-draft you posted is not bad in my opinion for that target. BUT:
    I have no idea what the main targets of the charta are – i only have a fragmentary idea of “most freedom for all as possible”.

    In my opinion it not the function of a charta to solve social problems. Instead a charta should give a picture frame and the people who accept and live with the charta draw their picture(s) between that frame.

    A militant non-smoker and an ignorant smoker cannot live lucky together in one house i guess.
    A tolerant non-smoker and a thoughtful smoker can do that 😉

    #400
    juan petry
    Keymaster

    hello norbert,
    you are right in two things. the charta should organize only the common basics of familiafeliz. therefore i use this forum to post fragments of the discussion to make it able for later comming people to understand what we had discussed in that period and what was the intention for that.
    so here you will meet fragments of the process to form the charta. if it is available we will send it to you 🙂
    second is you are absolutly right:

    A tolerant non-smoker and a thoughtful smoker can do that.

    familiafeliz will not organize or publish a dogma “no smoking” for all members. but i think it is importnat to understand that maybe there are non-smokers who join a non-smoking home unit and there are smokers joining a smoking home unit.

    but both could be accessable and part of familiafeliz and both units could work pretty well. in the charta we should have only the limitation, that the question “smoking yes or no” will be ever a question of the members of the unit and not of the familiafeliz plenum.

    do you agree in this?

    #408
    norbert
    Participant

    Hi Juan 🙂
    No problem – i like to discuss.
    And fore sure it is a good idea to have a documentation of the way to the charta.

    in the charta we should have only the limitation, that the question “smoking yes or no” will be ever a question of the members of the unit and not of the familiafeliz plenum.

    do you agree in this?

    I’m not sure.
    Do you ask me about the charta or do you ask me that the smoking question is a unit-responsibility?

    Charta:
    Maybe it is better to define exactly for what questions the plenum is responsible then to define for what questions it is not responsible?
    Else you have to define in the charta that the plenum is not responsible for the colors of someone’s bedroom-walls in his home-unit 😉

    As far as i have understand the familia feliz-concept a unit is a “corporate entity of it’s own rights” – is that correct?
    Then there is no need to define anything in the charta about the daily live of the unit-members?

    Smoking-question:
    Yes for sure i agree that it is a unit-question where the familiafeliz-plenum never is involved.

    #415
    juan petry
    Keymaster

    to peter:
    ———

    yes. the green text is the draft of the charta. we will hold it slim as possible, and every more short and exact version is welcome. my samples around – like smoking <> no-smoking – are only samples and they will not be implemented in the charta text.

    and yes. we have to decide also about a piece of text around the “plenum”. the piece of this thread was about units. and i handle this according to the discussion in the forum. so all this pieces are not in order here.

    and yes. it is not part of the charta to define any “daily life”. the main aspects of the charta are: what is familiafeliz, what are organs of this community (like plenum, unit, member), what are the relations between them, how to get in and out, how to handle growing (of the community).

    #484
    Antje Schultz
    Moderator

    Mainly to Juan’s original question –

    The original draft of the charta says:

    “The General Assembly decides about: entry and exit of members, opening and closing of functional units, functional units-border projects, dissolution or division of the community”.

    So if the new chicken unit in Spain is approved by the ff plenum, it is an official unit. If not, it may be a private hobby.

    I think in your example , Juan, two units are mixed up a bit. In your green draft, the focus is on working units. But there are home units as well – people that live together.

    The original draft says about units:

    A functional unit is composed of one member or a group of members of the community, living in a common location and / or working together. Functional units decide in plenary. Each member has one vote. Voting rights are not transferable. Decisions are made by consensus, each member has a veto. The plenum decides about: entry and exit of members in the functional unit, development, orientation and organization of the unit.

    So the decision to open a chicken unit is not the decision of the home unit. If all members of the home unit want to also participate in the chicken unit, then there are the same people, bit still it is a different unit!
    But as I understand, the point is that there may be people together in a home unit that do not all work in the chicken unit – ok. So the chicken unit (Juan and xxx or he himself alone) asks the plenum for an official status.

    If there are vegans, vegetarians and meat-eaters together in a home unit, they will have to find a way to live together in mutual respect. At least as far as I know, the home unit Casa del Dragon up to now (Sonia and Juan) did not set up any rules. That house is open to everybody. Nobody is forced to eat what he/she does not want or kill chicken! But tolerance works in both ways, doesn’t it? New rules would have to be accepted by all members of the unit – see above.

    We added later in the discussions an important point – and that is reality here already, e.g. the garden or the chicken farm in Windeck. We said a unit can be composed of a mix members of the community and non-members as well, following your credo (which I favour a lot):

    The community familiafeliz is defined by process-oriented cooperation and
    not by exclusion.

    So I think we need to clarify this a bit (in your draft this is only indirectly mentioned) – and do we need to set any special “rules” for these kind of units?

    By the way, for the general procedure: I would not like to start the text completely new (like you did in the green draft). I would rather take our original draft as the basis and add or modify sentences if necessary. OK?

    #497
    juan petry
    Keymaster

    units – home – working
    ———————-

    to antje
    ——–

    yes. you are right. i mixed up a little. but it is also part of developing the charter.

    A functional unit is composed of one member or a group of members of the community, living in a common location and / or working together. Functional units decide in plenary. Each member has one vote. Voting rights are not transferable. Decisions are made by consensus, each member has a veto. The plenum decides about: entry and exit of members in the functional unit, development, orientation and organization of the unit.

    this original should be mixed with my version in green.

    a unit is a funcional combination of people, ressources and knowledge and has a target. the target could be a long-term reason (association, company) or short termed and fixed (project). a unit has minimum one member who is also member of familiafeliz. every member of familiafeliz could join a unit or found a new unit. target and organization is definded by the members of the unit. a unit could apply for accreditation in the familiafeliz plenum. if the familiafeliz plenum accept the unit, it becomes a published accredited unit. if the plenum reject the accreditation it will be a private engagement of one – or some – members of familiafeliz.

    in general i prefer the more open version of the green text. it is more open and more realistic. the plenum should not decide about the inner structure of working units.

    from this point we have two choices. we could devide home units from working units and define for home units that they have to come to decision by plenum, consens and veto – like the general plenum – or we let them all define by semselves how they act. i could accept both. but i could not agree in limit the working units in this way of decision making because we will get a lot of trouble if we design a company with strong interfaces for responsibles and representatives of ths company.

    so… an update…

    a unit is a funcional combination of people, ressources and knowledge. a unit has a target. there are two types of units, home units (where people live together) and working units (where people work together). the target could be a long-term reason (association, company, homestat) or short termed and fixed (project, event). a unit has minimum one member who is also member of familiafeliz. every member of familiafeliz could join a unit or found a new unit. target and organization of a working unit is definded by the members of the unit. target and organisation of home unit is defined by the general plenum. a working unit could apply for accreditation in the familiafeliz plenum. if the familiafeliz plenum accept the unit, it becomes a published accredited unit. if the plenum reject the accreditation it will be a private engagement of one – or some – members of familiafeliz. home units must be accepted by the plenum. if the plenum reject the accreditation of a new home unit it becomes obsole.

    is this more clear?

    also i think, if members of the home unit casadeldragon decide to develop chicken, they start a new unit. in that case it would be started by juan (as a member) and carmen (as a foreign person of the community). it would take place in the farm land or in a little garden area (original plan). the question to mariella was an open request to explore, if she would help to run this unit, and if yes, if she agree in the conditions. at the end, according to the green version, it will be the decision of the home unit casa del dragon to eat chicken (or not) and the decision of the spanish chicken unit to slaughter them.

    to make it more clear. if the home unit farmhouse is builded up by mariella and juan, and they have to decide like we (familiafeliz) decide in plenum, with consens and veto, for sure mariella will reject sugar and meat – and juan has to accept this (and he would 🙂 …).

    i think, the home unit are not so much dependent from the society rules and for that it makes sense to implement in their construction the general way of respect and social skills of familiafeliz. in working units it would me quite complicate to do this, because it is impossible to interact with public law and interfaces.

    but if we open the door for working units which are able to act like plenum and home unit (decision in plenum, consensus, veto) we could attrack more and more to work in these units…

    the main sentence should be part of the first preambel text in the charter:

    The community familiafeliz is defined by process-oriented cooperation and not by exclusion.

    yes. and exactly this is a must-have also in the interaction between familiafeliz members inside a working unit and public interfaces and official law and order.

    🙂

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 7 months ago by juan petry.
    • This reply was modified 4 years, 7 months ago by juan petry.
    #502
    fafe
    Keymaster

    Hey there,

    I just read all this and for now I just want to answer Juans question, although I did not understand if you wanted this here or if it is just an example for understanding the charta.
    But I guess it won´t disturb the discussion eather way 😉

    First of all I want to say that I do not expect anyone living vegan or anything, just because I am. As I wrote in the other topic, and you guys already wrote here, I just want the people around me respecting my way of living and my desicions in raising Cheveyo.
    If Juan and me are doing the farmhouse unit, I do not expect Juan living vegan within the house, but I have to admit I would appreciate that, I would appreciate that very much 🙂 that would make our living together easier to me.

    When it comes to the chickens, I know they can be very helpful within gardening, and I do not have any problems with having them there, as long as you treat them well and dignified (würdevoll). But I will not participate slaughter in any way.

    #504
    juan petry
    Keymaster

    to mariella
    ———–

    in respect to you and cheveyo i would like to live with you in a vegan enviroment (and maybe i break out sometimes and eat something different outside). yes mariella, its the respect of a mother and person and the free consensus which would bring this vegan home unit to life 🙂

    and at the same time i could be part of the unit chicken and for sure you do not need to partizipate slaughter in any way.

    it is ok to explain this here, because we give a sample of making decisions and it could be very useful for the people with interest in familiafeliz in the future. and they will discover that the charter is a tool to describe the way of living and thinking of some poeple and not a tool to treat them to something.

    and for sure i hope to cook a lot with you to discover new tasty recipies 🙂

    to all
    ——

    a unit is a funcional combination of people, ressources and knowledge. a unit has a target. a unit combines people and ressources with a target. there are two types of units, home units (where people live together) and working units (where people work together). there are home and working units. the target could be a long-term reason (association, company, homestat) or short termed and fixed (project, event). a unit has minimum one member who is also member of familiafeliz. every member of familiafeliz could join a unit or found a new unit. target and organization of a working unit is definded by the members of the unit. target and organisation of home unit is defined by the general plenum. a working unit could apply for accreditation in the familiafeliz plenum. if the familiafeliz plenum accept the unit, it becomes a published accredited unit. if the plenum reject the accreditation it will be a private engagement of one – or some – members of familiafeliz. home units must be accepted by the plenum. if the plenum reject the accreditation of a new home unit it becomes obsole..

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 7 months ago by juan petry.
    #514
    norbert
    Participant

    Hey 🙂

    Just to understand what a home-unit is or should be some thoughts/questions about home unit:

    a unit has minimum one member who is also member of familiafeliz. every member of familiafeliz could join a unit or found a new unit.

    1. That means a homeunit can be one FamiliaFeliz-member alone?
    2. A homeunit can be FamiliaFeliz-member(s) and person(s) who are not members?

    […]target and organisation of home unit is defined by the general plenum.

    Some examples:
    A) One FamiliaFeliz-member want to leave an existing home-unit for whatever reason (dont has to be negative like social problems in the homeunit; maybe the member just want to leave because there is a work-unit near the home-unit he wants to join or two people from different homeunits fell in love or whatever) and want to join another existing home-unit.

    Is or should be the plenum involved in that situation?

    B) The plenum has decide that the homeunit “CasaDelDragon” has the target to manage and run the workunit “Artistresidence” located in the rooms of CasaDelDragon in form of an official organisation (limited liability company or whatever).

    Is it up to the plenum to decide who and how much people are building the homeunit in that case?
    For sure that would make sence in that case.

    Who decide who is responsible for “law and order” for the official organisation of the workunit “Artresidence”? The plenum, the whole homeunit, parts of the homeunit, the official owner?

    In case of example B (that is for every workunit which is an official company) there are some official needs to declare for “law and order” (organization, taxes, manager and so on) where the official owner(s) of the workunit has to give his/their signature “for law and order”.

    As far as i understand the vision of FamiliaFeliz and the last green text they are self-consistent.
    Generally i think a One-person-homeunit is not a good thing for a long time.
    But it is good if the charta is open at this point just because there could be unwanted practical constraints which made it necessary to deal with that situation for a period of time.

    lg, Norbert

    #516
    juan petry
    Keymaster

    (…)

    1. That means a homeunit can be one FamiliaFeliz-member alone?
    yes. if ALL in the cell plenum agree and no veto is taken.

    2. A homeunit can be FamiliaFeliz-member(s) and person(s) who are not members?
    yes and no. in a home unit – like any other unit, could be a mix of members and not-members, in the plenum of a unit are only members of familiafeliz.

    […]target and organisation of home unit is defined by the general plenum.

    to leave a home unit, the member has nobody to ask. to join a home unit, the member has to ask the plenum of the home unit if the members of this plenum agree. he could leave without asking the old home unit plenum, but he could not join without asking the new home unit plenum.

    (…)
    Is it up to the plenum to decide who and how much people are building the homeunit in that case?
 For sure that would make sence in that case.

    it is not the plenum of the home unit which create another unit. a unit is created by a member or a group of members of familiafeliz. one main condition of each unit is independence. so we could not think in creating a unit as a sub-unit of another unit.

    Who decide who is responsible for “law and order” for the official organisation of the workunit “Artresidence”? The plenum, the whole homeunit, parts of the homeunit, the official owner?

    the plenum of the working unit is set up by the members of familiafeliz, who are part of this unit.

    sample: we have persons like P1m, P2, P3m, P4 and P5. P1m and P3m are members of familiafeliz. the working unit “lawandordercompany” is initiated by P1m and P3m and shareholders are all 5 persons. They design the company as a limited Cooperation. P4 becomes CEO of the company. The decision is made in the plenum of the shareholders, not in the plenum of the unit. the responsible P4 will have the power till the shareholder plenum will decide anything else.

    (…)

    If the design of a home unit is created in the cell plenum, it is the decision of ALL, that it exists. If one in the cell plenum take veto, it does not become a home unit.

    So one act is, that a member decide to found a new home unit. the other is, if the plenum verify this or not.

    
But it is good if the charta is open at this point just because there could be unwanted practical constraints which made it necessary to deal with that situation for a period of time.

    first of all thanks for your input here. keep in mind that the charter will decribe the way we live together more, that the way we should live together…

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 7 months ago by juan petry.
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